![ssuperpoweredd:
newtheoryoldlove:
ssuperpoweredd:
newtheoryoldlove:
You should hear Tim Wise go on about this (or read one of his books). Serious shit.
No, racism includes every human being on the planet. And the fact that you’re distinguishing between “whites” and “non-whites” is in itself racist.
If there was a Caucasian girl in an area where Caucasian was not the majority, and she was being bullied for being Caucasian, would you tell her that they’re not being racist? That she should suck it up because she’s privileged because she’s white? No, you most likely wouldn’t.
I agree, an African American girl making fun of you in middle school isn’t racism. But you cannot exclude Caucasians from racism, because that’s racist.
So, I’d say not quite.
Racism as a term is definitely not exclusive of all “human beings,” however, it isn’t necessarily inclusive given a particular society. The problem is that you choose a situation that has flaws. A Caucasian girl in an area where Caucasians are not the majority, where she is being bullied for being Caucasian? Sure, that kind of sounds more like racism. Except that doesn’t really happen, and even if she was being bullied on grounds of her being Caucasian, that bullying doesn’t run deep enough to compare to racism as we know it in our society today.
If that did happen and there was enough history and oppression and sociological pressure to justify it being outright called racism, then I would absolutely agree that little white girl is a victim of racism. But if all of those conditions are not true, this is garden-variety discrimination, the same way you might be bullied for having big ears, wiry hair, or an annoying laugh. Should you suck it up? No. Is it fine for you to bullied? Absolutely not. But is it racism? Fuck no.
This is racism: decades of oppression within a particular society (and we can treat America pretty ubiquitously here given shared history, shared laws and justice system, and shared attitudes and portrayals in the media). When your average black woman goes to the store and needs assistance but consistently won’t get it given many different black women in many different scenarios (while your average white woman both gets preferential treatment AND is the catalyst for fair treatment, if any, given to anyone i.e. the white woman decides to help the black woman [i.e. watch The Help—seriously, wtf?]), which, by the way, we HAVE done studies on, that is racism. That black woman is not thinking “Oh these guys are just isolated cases of discrimination based off of the color of my skin and maybe they have some negative views but they are not widespread flaws that will undermine me within the system.” She is instead thinking “This is the way my society is and the connotations that are involved with the color of my skin due to centuries of how people like me are portrayed through television and media and laws, and the economic setbacks we’ve been put through because of the economics in terms of eligibility for loans (and, in later decades, stability of loans) as well as our educational disadvantages and whether or not we’ve been compensated over the years, and I feel fear and pain as well as overall decreased self-worth because this permeates every part of my life.” That is racism as we know it empirically.
Find me a white person in the western world who suffers from that. If the day ever comes that our scientific and sociological studies show that in normal every-day-life situations all white people are disadvantaged (be it applying for a job or asking for road-side assistance) because racism against whites has become fully internalized within both whites and non-whites alike, and where treatment of whites in legislature and social situations and by financial corporations and employers is markedly unequal to the treatment of non-whites in a negative sense, to the point where people born into the color of skin called “white” are being instilled with a sense of inequality and suffering by the social trends alone (before even personal experiences kick in), then, yes, we will have observed racism against white people.
Until then, it is safe to say that racism as we have observed it, especially in the western world and in all cases, is only defined by powerful enough experiences in our particular society as the experiences of non-whites. Most other experiences can be lumped into general distasteful discrimination (or, where it truly happens, some forms of reverse-discrimination, though most of those are laughable excuses for real discrimination). In order to call it racism, it has be as strong as oppression and continuing exploitation of an entire race of people, not simple personal experiences (which will never ache or hurt as much as personal experiences combined with an entire social exploitation that cannot, in any way shape or form, be evaded or succeeded).
So, no, this does not exclude Caucasians from racism fundamentally. (And, of course, in the past, in certain societies, treatment of white people [even by other white people] have, before, qualified as racism). What it does say is that we can define racism by what’s happened in our modern society to call a particular thing racism, and this is something that Caucasians here have not (and probably will never) experience, and if they do, we’ll be able to apply the same term to them in a fair and comparable manner. Bullying of a Caucasian girl in a non-Caucasian environment, though, could never be more than pure discrimination/bullying/hate or “generally isolated discrimination,” because that girl is not suffering from as widespread and heavily ingrained an experience socially, politically, etc. as the non-whites do.
I have yet to converse with an anthro/soc major or with a Professor teaching and studying issues of racism and of affirmative action who believes otherwise, or who even has any evidence to believe otherwise.
Here’s someone who says it way, way better than I do, the entire point of the difference between systematic experiences and non-systematic ones: Link
P.S. Tori if you’d like to converse at greater length, feel free to responsd here or to message me, and I’d love to recommend links on journals, studies, and readings (or receive some from you) to spark further discourse.
I feel we have a difference of opinion. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve gathered that you believe racism to be something to be wide-spread and not individual cases? That it’s oppression that’s been happening a long time and continues to happen? This is where I disagree. I personally believe that racism to be any sort of discrimination against any person because of their ethnicity. I definitely agree that it isn’t as common for the average white American to experience discrimination at the lengths that many other races do, but I wouldn’t exclude them. I just believe that racism includes everyone and any exclusion is racist. To believe that Caucasians never experience racism is naive. Saying that racism is only oppression of non-whites because whites don’t generally, nor have ever truly had a widespread oppression is like saying that we should only give relief to the poorest of the poor because they’re the ones that need it the most. At least that’s how I see it. I think that even more today there’s ever so slightly more prejudice against whites especially within the internet community. The talk of ‘white privilege’ comes to mind. (which is a term - if I’m understanding it correctly - I don’t generally like because it has a connotation that for anyone who is white, they have it made.)
I’m not saying, ‘yes, let’s promote white rights!!” I’m saying, don’t exclude. Don’t generalize. I believe racism to be all-inclusive and a present thing that’s not entirely dependent on the past or how wide-spread it is.
I’m not entirely sure that made sense or came out how I wanted it to, or will come off as I want it to. This is simply my opinion based on what I’ve seen and what I believe. I personally want equality for every person in every way. I’m not trying to…minimize what has happened to people of races that are heavily discriminated against, nor am I trying to exaggerate any racial plights of the average Caucasian. I’m just trying to explain my point.
Agree to disagree?
I understand your point, Tori, and I also understand we have a difference of opinions. But this is mostly past reasoning, since there isn’t much new information I can add, and you didn’t give me too factually/statistically relevant examples to work off of, only opinions/notions. Also, again, as for “racism” and “exclusion,” that was one of the first points I touched on—I did address that, I hope you saw, in my original post.
Racism is something wide-spread and not restricted to individual cases, and this is what makes it racism, when it happens to the individual within the social group that suffers from it. As I wrote in my initial response, it is the shared suffering of the race and the treatment of the race within the society, which is explained in the definition of racism, that makes it relevant to individuals and individual suffering. It is putting the burden of a million people on a single person’s back, that is, on each person who is subjected to racism. One can not feel the full brunt of what we know as racism if one does not have the shared social/cultural/political experiences that bring on that blow.
And, actually, “generalizing” isn’t something that is discouraged in academia, so much as “not-being-correct.” Generalizing here is perfectly fine to do if it fits something that is true within a defined domain. We cannot say, again, that it is impossible for white people to ever experience racism. We can say that cases of discrimination based off of race towards white people are still semantically categorized, respectfully and respectively, as discrimination/bullying/hatred, because this cannot be compared to being disadvantaged in the work place and in social situations and in the market/financial world and in the media due to your race, and to call discrimination against whites “racism” is to say that you equate discrimination against whites to decades of oppression that continues in the form of obvious sociocultural disadvantages, cycles of bias incidents and targeting, consistently lower salaries and consistent labeling, and the feeling of immobility throughout the entire country, that plagues non-whites.
This, contrary to your example, is not like saying we should only give relief to the poorest of the poor. This is putting things in perspective.
Also, you should check your understanding of the term “white privilege,” because it isn’t the way you’re seeing it, as we see it in academia, as we defined it. “White privilege” refers to undeniable privileges that whites do have as a group in comparison to non-whites. This does not mean that they have it made, nor does it mean that they have all the privileges that exist. It means that they have specific relative privileges, that apply to all white people, regardless of other personal situations. Those specific privileges are very, very specific, and are not subjective things like money (rich black people defy this) or lack of hate crimes (hate crimes against whites defy this). The term applies to very specific averages and very specific legal/social/cultural issues that white people are by definition exempt from / free from. If the term referred to things that were outside the experience of whites as a singular unit, then the term would be unfair.
So, despite your intentions, we cannot have equality for all people if we continue to equate things that are not equitable. The experience of whites and non-whites as we have observed it in an entire group in this society are not even close to comparable. If you would like to say that white people can be mistreated for their race, I agree, anyone can be mistreated for their race, and people often are. However, white people in our society have not been mistreated because of their whiteness in a way that is even close to comparable to the racism experienced by all other groups.
Also, did you read the link that I posted in my original reply? If you haven’t, I think it would be a great read, and help provoke a lot more thought on the subject. Also, you may want to consider taking classes in college on racism and affirmative action; you have good intentions and it seems like the topic interests you a lot, and for a topic that is often so discussion based and eye-opening (not just between different people, but when we realize what we’ve internalized or been mistaken about, ourselves) I think it would be a great opportunity.
And, Tori… I saw your “read more.” If it does involve this, don’t take it personally, it’s an external debate about an important topic. It’s good to be vocal, and it’s okay to differ, yeah. I just prefer to comment on issues I’ve been specifically educated in when it’s possible that there might be some positive contribution. Sorry about that.](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxhmupdGyV1qbu3z8o1_500.png)
You should hear Tim Wise go on about this (or read one of his books). Serious shit.
No, racism includes every human being on the planet. And the fact that you’re distinguishing between “whites” and “non-whites” is in itself racist.
If there was a Caucasian girl in an area where Caucasian was not the majority, and she was being bullied for being Caucasian, would you tell her that they’re not being racist? That she should suck it up because she’s privileged because she’s white? No, you most likely wouldn’t.
I agree, an African American girl making fun of you in middle school isn’t racism. But you cannot exclude Caucasians from racism, because that’s racist.
So, I’d say not quite.
Racism as a term is definitely not exclusive of all “human beings,” however, it isn’t necessarily inclusive given a particular society. The problem is that you choose a situation that has flaws. A Caucasian girl in an area where Caucasians are not the majority, where she is being bullied for being Caucasian? Sure, that kind of sounds more like racism. Except that doesn’t really happen, and even if she was being bullied on grounds of her being Caucasian, that bullying doesn’t run deep enough to compare to racism as we know it in our society today.
If that did happen and there was enough history and oppression and sociological pressure to justify it being outright called racism, then I would absolutely agree that little white girl is a victim of racism. But if all of those conditions are not true, this is garden-variety discrimination, the same way you might be bullied for having big ears, wiry hair, or an annoying laugh. Should you suck it up? No. Is it fine for you to bullied? Absolutely not. But is it racism? Fuck no.
This is racism: decades of oppression within a particular society (and we can treat America pretty ubiquitously here given shared history, shared laws and justice system, and shared attitudes and portrayals in the media). When your average black woman goes to the store and needs assistance but consistently won’t get it given many different black women in many different scenarios (while your average white woman both gets preferential treatment AND is the catalyst for fair treatment, if any, given to anyone i.e. the white woman decides to help the black woman [i.e. watch The Help—seriously, wtf?]), which, by the way, we HAVE done studies on, that is racism. That black woman is not thinking “Oh these guys are just isolated cases of discrimination based off of the color of my skin and maybe they have some negative views but they are not widespread flaws that will undermine me within the system.” She is instead thinking “This is the way my society is and the connotations that are involved with the color of my skin due to centuries of how people like me are portrayed through television and media and laws, and the economic setbacks we’ve been put through because of the economics in terms of eligibility for loans (and, in later decades, stability of loans) as well as our educational disadvantages and whether or not we’ve been compensated over the years, and I feel fear and pain as well as overall decreased self-worth because this permeates every part of my life.” That is racism as we know it empirically.
Find me a white person in the western world who suffers from that. If the day ever comes that our scientific and sociological studies show that in normal every-day-life situations all white people are disadvantaged (be it applying for a job or asking for road-side assistance) because racism against whites has become fully internalized within both whites and non-whites alike, and where treatment of whites in legislature and social situations and by financial corporations and employers is markedly unequal to the treatment of non-whites in a negative sense, to the point where people born into the color of skin called “white” are being instilled with a sense of inequality and suffering by the social trends alone (before even personal experiences kick in), then, yes, we will have observed racism against white people.
Until then, it is safe to say that racism as we have observed it, especially in the western world and in all cases, is only defined by powerful enough experiences in our particular society as the experiences of non-whites. Most other experiences can be lumped into general distasteful discrimination (or, where it truly happens, some forms of reverse-discrimination, though most of those are laughable excuses for real discrimination). In order to call it racism, it has be as strong as oppression and continuing exploitation of an entire race of people, not simple personal experiences (which will never ache or hurt as much as personal experiences combined with an entire social exploitation that cannot, in any way shape or form, be evaded or succeeded).
So, no, this does not exclude Caucasians from racism fundamentally. (And, of course, in the past, in certain societies, treatment of white people [even by other white people] have, before, qualified as racism). What it does say is that we can define racism by what’s happened in our modern society to call a particular thing racism, and this is something that Caucasians here have not (and probably will never) experience, and if they do, we’ll be able to apply the same term to them in a fair and comparable manner. Bullying of a Caucasian girl in a non-Caucasian environment, though, could never be more than pure discrimination/bullying/hate or “generally isolated discrimination,” because that girl is not suffering from as widespread and heavily ingrained an experience socially, politically, etc. as the non-whites do.
I have yet to converse with an anthro/soc major or with a Professor teaching and studying issues of racism and of affirmative action who believes otherwise, or who even has any evidence to believe otherwise.
Here’s someone who says it way, way better than I do, the entire point of the difference between systematic experiences and non-systematic ones: Link
P.S. Tori if you’d like to converse at greater length, feel free to responsd here or to message me, and I’d love to recommend links on journals, studies, and readings (or receive some from you) to spark further discourse.
I feel we have a difference of opinion. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve gathered that you believe racism to be something to be wide-spread and not individual cases? That it’s oppression that’s been happening a long time and continues to happen? This is where I disagree. I personally believe that racism to be any sort of discrimination against any person because of their ethnicity. I definitely agree that it isn’t as common for the average white American to experience discrimination at the lengths that many other races do, but I wouldn’t exclude them. I just believe that racism includes everyone and any exclusion is racist. To believe that Caucasians never experience racism is naive. Saying that racism is only oppression of non-whites because whites don’t generally, nor have ever truly had a widespread oppression is like saying that we should only give relief to the poorest of the poor because they’re the ones that need it the most. At least that’s how I see it. I think that even more today there’s ever so slightly more prejudice against whites especially within the internet community. The talk of ‘white privilege’ comes to mind. (which is a term - if I’m understanding it correctly - I don’t generally like because it has a connotation that for anyone who is white, they have it made.)
I’m not saying, ‘yes, let’s promote white rights!!” I’m saying, don’t exclude. Don’t generalize. I believe racism to be all-inclusive and a present thing that’s not entirely dependent on the past or how wide-spread it is.
I’m not entirely sure that made sense or came out how I wanted it to, or will come off as I want it to. This is simply my opinion based on what I’ve seen and what I believe. I personally want equality for every person in every way. I’m not trying to…minimize what has happened to people of races that are heavily discriminated against, nor am I trying to exaggerate any racial plights of the average Caucasian. I’m just trying to explain my point.
Agree to disagree?
I understand your point, Tori, and I also understand we have a difference of opinions. But this is mostly past reasoning, since there isn’t much new information I can add, and you didn’t give me too factually/statistically relevant examples to work off of, only opinions/notions.
Also, again, as for “racism” and “exclusion,” that was one of the first points I touched on—I did address that, I hope you saw, in my original post.
Racism is something wide-spread and not restricted to individual cases, and this is what makes it racism, when it happens to the individual within the social group that suffers from it. As I wrote in my initial response, it is the shared suffering of the race and the treatment of the race within the society, which is explained in the definition of racism, that makes it relevant to individuals and individual suffering. It is putting the burden of a million people on a single person’s back, that is, on each person who is subjected to racism. One can not feel the full brunt of what we know as racism if one does not have the shared social/cultural/political experiences that bring on that blow.
And, actually, “generalizing” isn’t something that is discouraged in academia, so much as “not-being-correct.” Generalizing here is perfectly fine to do if it fits something that is true within a defined domain. We cannot say, again, that it is impossible for white people to ever experience racism. We can say that cases of discrimination based off of race towards white people are still semantically categorized, respectfully and respectively, as discrimination/bullying/hatred, because this cannot be compared to being disadvantaged in the work place and in social situations and in the market/financial world and in the media due to your race, and to call discrimination against whites “racism” is to say that you equate discrimination against whites to decades of oppression that continues in the form of obvious sociocultural disadvantages, cycles of bias incidents and targeting, consistently lower salaries and consistent labeling, and the feeling of immobility throughout the entire country, that plagues non-whites.
This, contrary to your example, is not like saying we should only give relief to the poorest of the poor. This is putting things in perspective.
Also, you should check your understanding of the term “white privilege,” because it isn’t the way you’re seeing it, as we see it in academia, as we defined it. “White privilege” refers to undeniable privileges that whites do have as a group in comparison to non-whites. This does not mean that they have it made, nor does it mean that they have all the privileges that exist. It means that they have specific relative privileges, that apply to all white people, regardless of other personal situations. Those specific privileges are very, very specific, and are not subjective things like money (rich black people defy this) or lack of hate crimes (hate crimes against whites defy this). The term applies to very specific averages and very specific legal/social/cultural issues that white people are by definition exempt from / free from. If the term referred to things that were outside the experience of whites as a singular unit, then the term would be unfair.
So, despite your intentions, we cannot have equality for all people if we continue to equate things that are not equitable. The experience of whites and non-whites as we have observed it in an entire group in this society are not even close to comparable. If you would like to say that white people can be mistreated for their race, I agree, anyone can be mistreated for their race, and people often are. However, white people in our society have not been mistreated because of their whiteness in a way that is even close to comparable to the racism experienced by all other groups.
Also, did you read the link that I posted in my original reply? If you haven’t, I think it would be a great read, and help provoke a lot more thought on the subject. Also, you may want to consider taking classes in college on racism and affirmative action; you have good intentions and it seems like the topic interests you a lot, and for a topic that is often so discussion based and eye-opening (not just between different people, but when we realize what we’ve internalized or been mistaken about, ourselves) I think it would be a great opportunity.
And, Tori… I saw your “read more.” If it does involve this, don’t take it personally, it’s an external debate about an important topic. It’s good to be vocal, and it’s okay to differ, yeah. I just prefer to comment on issues I’ve been specifically educated in when it’s possible that there might be some positive contribution. Sorry about that.
(Source: youandiandthee)
